1340
Nem GTA3 hanem GT3
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ShaiHulud #449 miert nem lehet beismerni hogy a gt3 nem szimulator !? belehalnal? -
#448
Te sem érted, hogy miről szól.. Erről már írtam. -
#447
Korrekt mikor 200-al nekimész a falnak és lepattansz rola? -
#446
De nagyon korrekt szimuláció van benne, és semmiképp nem nevezhető pure arcade-nak. -
#445
A terep2 nem más szimulátor, a terep2 simulator, a gt3 nem :) -
#444
Mindenkinek más az igénye. Aki csak végig akarja nyomni, tökéletes az alapbeállítás. -
#443
"A Terep2 nagyobb szimulator"
Nem. A Terep2 más szimulátor. Mint ahogy az Elastomania. Még mindig nem sikerült megérteni, hogy miről szól a GT. Igaz, ahhoz bele is kéne mélyedni. -
ShaiHulud #442 de Freak epp errol beszelt hogy minek bealllitani ha az alapbeallitassal es vegig lehet nyomni!! az allitgatas akkor lenne jo ha a defaulttal nem lehetne nyerni...de igy ertelmet veszti bizonyos szemszogbol, de mint poen arra jo a tuning resze :) -
#441
"te segg hülye vagy ha azt hiszed, hogy ez bármit is számít amikor ÁLLÍTGATÁS NÉLKÜL BANNÁNAL végignyomom neked ezt a hulladékot...... hol szimulátor ez??? LOL :DD max azt szimulálja, hogy szimulátor.... nevetséges :D"
Nem azt magyaráztam, hogy beállítás kérdése, hogy mennyire könnyű? Vazze, olvasd már el, ott van szinte minden, amit tapasztaltak a játékról. -
#440
Ja, és nincs belső nézet? :( -
#439
Szerintem jo kis game a GT3, de néhány nap mulva már meguntam, főleg amiatt hogy hiába csapodtam a falnak vagy egy másik autonak, semmi, max lelassultam... ez az egy hibája van, amugy nagyon jo game, főleg a sok auto miatt, meg a tuning... -
ShaiHulud #437 megint unreg...erzodik rendesen a cinizmus a hangveteledbol, ezert kerdem, hogy miert kell mindig csinalni ezt a fesztivalt...mar meg lettek beszelve a dolgok... -
ShaiHulud #434 muszaj ezeket??? -
#432
És most reklám! -
#430
Kár, hogy ezt a Terep2-t nem akarják kihozni a konzolokra is! :D
De nem értem: mindkét platformnak megvannak a saját etalonjai és ezek soha nem is fogják überelni egymást, lévén soha nem lesz annyi Nascar eladva Ps2-n, mint Gt3 és ez igaz fordítva is(pláne mert meg sem csinálják pc-re,mert közel sem lenne akkora siker, mint konzolon /azt most hagyjuk,hogy "úgysem futna pc-n" meg stb.,ez csak példa volt) -
#428
tiszta sor, én mindig is mondtam, hogy nekem az arcade féle "fos" autósok jobban bejönnek, mint a szimulátorok. -
#427
Valszeg ott van a felre ertes, hogy a GT3 a PS2-on, a tobbi PS2-es jatekhoz kepest tenyleg "szimulatornak" tunik, az igengyenge felhozatal miatt.
A masik felre ertes az lehet, hogy azt hiszik, hogy a "tokeletesen" modelezett autok, mar szimulatort jelentenek.
Pedig nem. A Terep2 nagyobb szimulator: 2 fajta belso nezet (fix es dinamikus), tobb fata kulso nezet, nagyon jo fizika (allithato gravitacioval), poligon szintu tores, utminosegtol fuggo tapadas, felverodes stb. :))))))))))) -
#426
hát ez az
ha valaki az arcade autókázásba éli bele magát, ne magyarázza már meg, hogy márpedig ő szimulátorral játszik.... -
#425
Minden game lényege, hogy mennyire tudod beleélni magad, mennyire tudod átvenni a hangulatát.Ha ez sikerül, BÁRMILYEN játékkal szívesebben játszik az ember,és ezt szerintem nem lehet és nem is kell megcáfolni. -
#424
Persze, hogy unalmas! Annak aki felületesen nézi!
De ha tényleg elmerül benne a játékos, és beleéli magát, akkor el sem lehet robbantani a monitor elől.
És ez így minden egyes játékra igaz... -
#423
De egy év Gpl után sem lesz jogsija :)
Úgy vélem az igazi autózás élményét tökéletesen ma még egy játék sem tudja visszaadni.De vannak dícséretes próbálkozások...
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#422
"konzolos oldalról nézve pedig a Nascar unalmas"
Na ez az, amiből az egész kiindult. Ugyanis ez egy tévhit. Aki valaha vette a fáradságot, és végignézett egy Nascar futamot a TV-ben, az ilyet nem mond. Sőt, ennél izgalmasabb autósport talán nincs is, ugyanis itt nem lehet pihenni a kanyarokban, lassítókban, az autók nagyjából ugyanazt tudják, és minden az idegeken múlik. Épp most volt nascar futamunk, és egy kis félreértés miatt nem tudtam eléggé koncetrálni, aminek az lett a vége, hogy elcsúsztam és belémrongyoltak. Ebből is látszik, hogy itt nincs lazítás, és nézőként sem mehet ki az ember a konyhába, mert tuti lemarad valamiről.... De ezt hiába magyarázom annak, aki a GT3 ovál versenyei alapján ítéli meg a nascart, mert az tényleg kurva unalmas.... Ráadásul olyan szintre le van butítva, hogy szinte lehetetlen kicsúszni, ha túl gyors vagy nem fordul az orra, ha meg nem, akkor beveszed a kanyart... -
#421
nagyjából ugyanazt mondjuk
a jogsi dolog sarkítva van, maradjunk annyiban, hogy egy év GPL után kevesebb meglepetés éri az embert egy igazi autóban -
#420
Tehát a lényeg :)
Pc-s oldalról nézve a Gt3 arcade, konzolos oldalról nézve pedig a Nascar unalmas.De ami tagadhatatlan: mindkettő a legjobb a maga kategóriájában, de még véletlenül sem lehet őket egy lapon említeni. -
#419
Ugyan már Freak! Te sem gondolod komolyan, hogy ha valaki végignyomott pár versenyt a Nascarban, akkor egyből vágja majd a jogsit :) Azért még szvsz nem tartunk ott, hogy gépről tanuljunk meg vezetni.
Meg csak hozzászólok már a témához: nekem nem rég lett meg a Gt3, és tényleg nem szim, főleg ha a Nascarhoz vagy a Gpl-hez hasonlítjuk. Mindenki tudja, hogy ezek majdhogynem "csontszimek",sőt!
A Gt3 szim a maga kategóriájában(a konzolos játékok között), és ott magasan a legjobb!Itt leginkább a száguldáson van a lényeg,de senki ne higgye, hogy olyan qrva könnyű a játék, mert nem az!
És mellesleg nagyon szépen kivitelezett játék.De pc-n egy szimulátortól nem a csili-vili grafikot várja el az ember,hanem a "majdnem" tökéletes fizikát. -
#418
huh ez jó kis olvasmány lesz :D
Vasárnap válaszolok -
#417
Köszönjük szépen....
mi lett volna, ha hányni szerettél volna? -
#416
Neme,Freak én írtam...részint lefordítottam 120 oldalnyi autós dolgokat a GT3-hoz a intercoolertől a differenciálművig, amikor megszereztem a gammát...mindent lehet setupolni és mindennek van hatása a játékban. Mindent tudni akartam...amit lehetett.
Akkoriban csak gamepadom volt...és csak az érdekelt a gt3-ban, ahogy mindenkit az érdekel először ,hogy az összes verdát megszerezze és ehhez valóban nem kell állítgatni semmit, autómata váltóval TCS ASM bekapcsolva, csak gyűjtöd a dellát és létrehozol néhany nagyon tuti autót, amik istenien néznek ki megelégszel velük....és megcsinálod a játékot jó pár hónap alatt.
És mindez miért is volt így? Mert, ha bármikor átállítottam valamit...könnyen belestem abba hogy "elcsesztem" az autót és utolsó lettem, mert nem úgy fogott a fék stb. És ki szeret veszíteni? Senki:) Főleg ha az álomszép verda megszerzéséről van szó.Szóval maradtam "arcade" szinten, mert a gép is úgy vezetett és hajtottam a gammát meg a megnyerhető verdákat. Van olyan pálya is ahol levághatsz a kanyarban a gép ezért nem büntet...:)ez sem szim-es felfogás:)
Én még mindig nem nyomtam végig, de az öcsikém teljesen beleesett...és mostanság kezd érni bennünk a gondolat, hogy jó jó megvan minden autók szépek, de mi van még ezen kívül??
Most már van kormányom egy ideje. És rájöttünk arra is ,hogyan lehet realisztikuasabbá tenni a játékot....SIM TYRE hihetetlenül segített. És most, ha linkeljük a cuccost akkor mindketten hasonló körülményekkel megyünk, de ugye ez a ritkább esemény (gépcipelés) úgyhogy inkább felváltva megyünk azonos beállítással ugyanazon pályan. (lsd múltkor a Shelby Cobra variáltuk)
Ezt a Shelby Cobrat kísérletképpen "odaadtuk" a gépnek ,hogy mit kezd vele. Ezt úgy lehet megtenni pl a Granturismo Mode alatt a GARAGE-ban kiválasztod a RUN and Setting pontot....mielőtt elindulnál a gép a te beállított verdáddal megy. A menüpontok mögött a háttérben elindul a járgány, amit a gép vezet. Na a mi kis átgyúrt SIM TYRE-os Cobránkat a gép elkezdte vezetni....megy megy...első kanyar Laguna Seca....a gép vazze a homokágyban... ilyen szédületesen hülye AI-ra nem számítottam.
Felvetődik tehát, akkor most hogy versenyezzek SIM mode körülmények között...a gép ugye agyonsegített verdával nyomul :ARCADE, és nem hibázik...én meg ott próbálkozom a SIM-es kocsikámmal erősen küzdve, kanyarokban megcsúszva, értékes tizedeket veszítve.
Egy választás marad az élő ellenfél. Linkelni lehet...vagy egymás után azonos pályan nyomni.[Az álom az lenne ha lenne online mode (ha csak hatan lehetne egyszerre már az is tuti lenne), akkor az nagyon jó lenne és ott lefixálva pl ,hogy mindenki azonos feltételekkel menjen. ASM TCS OFF, SIM tyre és azonos teljesítményű és hajtástípusú autók]
Szóval ez a max a GT3-ban, ami nekem persze bőven elég, de én megértem, hogy Freaknek nem...és nincs borulás törés motorfőzés és keréknyomás sem. Sajnos én a valódi féknyomokat is nagyon hiányolom és a kavicságyban sem marad semmi nyom...ehelyett megkapod a legszebben kivitelezett autókat.
Szóval valamit valamiért....
Én továbbra is azt mondom.
Alex ez jóval jobb, mint az NFS vagy a Burnout2 cuccok...én nem értem miért azokhoz sorolnád a GT3-at és egyben jóval kevesebb is bizonyos SZIM-es szemmel ,mint pl a Nascar.
A Nascar és PC-s szimek felépítése más. Ott a lényeg az, amit Freak mond...ők nem akarnak kompromisszumot, hogy a laikus "ötpercre bekapcsolom gyorsan" is tudjanak menni vele. Ezek a progik a szöszölősőknek készültek ráádásul a Nascar online lehetősége sztem verhetetlen és a GT3 emiatt nem is fér a közelébe.
A GT3 egyedisége pont az ,hogy az aki akar menni vele gyorsan és élvezetesen az 3 perc alatt az lerendezi a dolgot, DE aki ennél többet akar (és ezért ne említsük az NFS szintjén) az is még kap valamit...kis setup kis simtyre...de ez kevés a SZIM- hez, mert pl. a gépi ellenfél marad a régi arcade-os, nincs borulás, törés, motorfőzőcske és valódi belső nézet...
Ezekről valószínűleg Yamauchi is tud, de a GT3 így is csúszott vagy fél vagy háromnegyed évet és itt kompromisszumokat kellett kötni.
Autógyárak engenek-e törést. vagy egyáltalán, lehet-e az ilyen kidolgozottságú és mennyiségű kocsikra olyan törésmodellt csinálni, ami nem teszi nevetségessé az egészet. És ha azt látnák most ,hogy szar a törésmodell azon sírnánk "Áh inkább ne is törtek volna a járgányok"
Belső nézetek kidolgozása: ha az autók külső nezetéhez képesti szintet meg akarta volna tartani Yamauchi, akkor az még 5 évig dolgozhatott volna:)
6 autó a pályan: ebben a kivitelben ebben a hardwarekörnyezetben, akkor...ennyire futotta ez elég egyszerű.
Szóval Yamauchi tudna egy fullos szimet is csinálni, mert a képessége, szakembergárdája megvan hozzá. De neki is van egy főnöke a SONY...és akkor innentől lehet ecsetelni a pénzt is, meg mindent:)
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Kou #415 Najó beböfögök valamit: Gran Turismo nagyon jó a maga stílusában!
De ha igazi árkádot akarok nyomni
akkor RIDGE RACER FOREVAH -
#414
:D
Már komolyan hiányoztál, ez az új harcos elég idegtépő volt :D -
#413
ki szólított? -
#412
te segg hülye vagy ha azt hiszed, hogy ez bármit is számít amikor ÁLLÍTGATÁS NÉLKÜL BANNÁNAL végignyomom neked ezt a hulladékot...... hol szimulátor ez??? LOL :DD max azt szimulálja, hogy szimulátor.... nevetséges :D -
#411
Limited Slip Differentials : LSD helps the car when pulling away and during cornering. It does this by making sure that the driven wheels both rotate at the same speed. Without an LSD turn in too fast to a tight bend and you will spin the inside wheel through loss of traction, which ultimately scrubs speed and time when you exit the bend. Alternatively the LSD will help the car to corner as well. However by making the near side wheel turn slower than the offside wheel when cornering you will hook the car round to the right meaning that you can enter the right hand bends at a faster speed than without the LSD. Really it's a compromise on the type of circuit your racing at whether it consists of mostly left or right hand bends.
LSD Initial : This purely dictates how much the values stiffen or loosen the differentials. A higher setting will maximise the biggest acceleration and deceleration values and a lower setting will have the reverse effect.
LSD Acceleration : A lower setting will mean the wheels spin more independently of each other and a higher value tightens up both wheels which will increase the grip especially when you pull away. Also, by delivering the same amount of power to each driven when pulling away you will help the car to pull off in a straight line and reduce any torque steer (the effect of the car pulling to the left or right under acceleration depending on which of the driven wheels has more power).
LSD Deceleration : This is the complete opposite of the Acceleration settings and will help the control and turn in of the car under braking. A higher setting will tighten both wheels up delivering the same amount of power to each. The result of a higher setting will be that the car will now have more turn in force and will decrease the chance of spinning. However set the gearbox differential up too tight and on a rear or front drive car you will cause understeer because the back will want to push the front on mid corner.
Gearing and Ratios
The gearbox settings can be quite a daunting prospect when setting up the car. By pulling all the individual elements apart it makes it really easy. The higher the auto slider the slower the acceleration but the higher the top speed. The settings are individual to each and every circuit as a tight and twisty circuit like Autumn Mini will mean you should run a gearbox with short gearing or a low autoset. Take the car out onto the circuit chosen with a standard autoset of say 15. The fastest way is by keeping the engine in the power band, as much of the time as possible. The gearing is very important in achieving this. Each gear has an individual value, all of which are controlled by the final ratio. A lower final ratio will also increase acceleration but reduce top speed. As every car has a different power-band the gearbox should be tailored to suit each engine. Starting with a final value of 3.400 and an auto set of 15 it will act as a good basis to run the car around the circuit. If you find you're not even close to using the all the revs in the top gears then bring down the auto-slider until on the fastest part of the circuit you are using the maximum amount of revs without hitting the rev-limiter. Once you are happy with the general setup of the final ratio and auto-slider you can now touch the individual gear settings. Each bend will have an optimum gear to get you through the fastest without running off the circuit. If you're approaching a right hand bend and you're just having to use fourth because third is on the rev-limiter it will mean fourth will drop you away from the power-band. Take the setting for third gear and reduce its value. This will now mean that it will change from second into third lower down the revs thus giving you more available speed through the turn, maximising your speed and letting you change into fourth at the right point. Shave just one tenth per corner by maximising the gearing and you've possibly saved yourself a second per lap.
Power-Torque Graph
Right-o, so what's all this about powerbands and rev limiters? Basically the powerband is where the engine of the car is working at its best. It's where the performance of the engine will be at its most optimum. Figuring out where your car needs to be revving to be in the powerband is fairly easy. You go into the settings screen, and select one of the engine options such as turbo, na tune, or any other engine modification. There will be a small graph in the bottom left of the screen with lines going through it. This graph shows exactly where the engine works best and where the ideal shifting point is located. Using this information gleamed from this graph it can be put to use in racing and tuning.
The orange line on the graph represents the horsepower that is used as the revolutions per minute (rpm) are increased. The blue line shows the torque at relevant rpms also. To represent what exactly each value means we'll take a car we'll be using as a tuning example later on. Get a hold of the Lancia Stratos and fully mod it up. Everything you can get a hold of until you are left with a race bodied nifty wee car. Enter the settings screen in one omode or another and bring up this graph. Examine it for a scond or two. Looking at the blue line on th egraph we can see that the torque is at its peak at roughly 35kg/m (confirmed by the text to the right of the graph) across the space of 5000rpm to about 7500rpm. This means that if you have your gears set up to be within this range you will be running the engine at its best performance possible.
Now, the orange line. Simply this shows you the point at where the power tapers off in each gear and ultimately the best place to shift gears. In this example it can be seen that it peaks at just before 8000rpm. Using this data you can go and test shifting and you'd end up shifting better at roughly 7900rpm. The car will acclerate pretty well and hold good speed through the range of 5000 to 7500rpms.
Looks difficult but when you break it down like that it is quite simple to understand and will without doubt help you in setting up your gears which we will glance upon in the later example in the Stratos at Midfield Raceway. Check it out for more information.
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Tuning Procedure
Example 1 - Mazda RX-7 Type RB '97 at Red Rock Valley Speedway
Let's not use a low powered car. After all we want to know how to tame the rear wheel beasts that cause us nightmares. Correct? Exactly! We want to take a car that oversteers and kicks like a mule and put it on a track where this kicking is most evident. So what car will we use? We'll use a fully modified Mazda RX-7 Type RB '98. Everything possible, but not the LSD, traction control and stability controller. Red Rock Valley will be the track used. So let's take our car out in stock form. I'll list the following as steps.
- A quick spin around the track in stock settings show a few things. First, the car has an awful tendency to understeer at inopportune moments. It also seems to want to spin when you get to the lower gears and get the power on. Another thing immediately obvious is that the stock gearing just isn't going to cut it. So, we move on...
- Whack the downforce up to max on both the front and rear. Change the autosetup in the gears section to say 15. Let's see how that works out.
- Hmm, the car is immediately more stable. The gears seem to be working at the minute but we still have that nasty understeer at the exit of the corners.
- Back to altering a few settings I immediately put the ride height to 89/135 to see if we can get good acceleration from this little tuning trick. Maybe the car will work maybe it won't. It's down to testing it. We want the car to be a little more responsive as well so I put the dampers on both bound and rebound up to their maximum values of 10/10.
-Another run around the track reveals what? The car still understeers slightly but it isn't as bad. Why? The car is now more responsive due to the dampers. We're also getting out of the corners faster due to the ride height setting. An explanation for this ride height setting? Basically with a high rear value the car when accelerating throws all of its weight to the rear. When this weight hits the rear it pushes the suspension and thus gives the wheels more traction on the track. Hence faster acceleration. Take note, this ride height trick doesn't work all of the time, only on a few select cars.
- We need the car to be a little more responsive which means we need to stiffen up the springs. We want to keep the balance of the car as it is at the moment until we are happy with the cars response times and reactions. So add 10.0 to each spring setting. This means the car springs are now 18.6/16.5.
- Try another run. Result? Very responsive. Almost exactly as I would want the car. Problems? Understeer and a nasty tendency to oversteer mid corner. Let's use the stabilisers to eradicate that effect.
- Set the stabilisers to 5/6 and see what happens. A few laps show the effect has almost disappeared. Normally the stiffer the settings the better so we'll increase this to 6/7. Another quick test reveals that those settings work just as well as the softer settings. Still not happy with that understeer problem. So stiffen the rear springs so they are harder than the front. Maybe try 18.6/19.0?
- Another spin in the car shows the setup is working very well indeed. The corners are being taken at a higher speed. Maybe slightly slow on the straight due to the camber but nothing a few tweaks won't help. Maybe try without camber?
- No, definitely needs camber, the car doesn't stick as well in the corners without it. Set the camber back to default.
- Let's try fiddling with the gears. I suggest the final ratio should be changed to get just a little more acceleration. Change it to 4.110. Maybe the fourth gear needs a little tweak to ensure getting around that first corner at the best rpms available.
- At this stage it is down to fine tuning the car and seeing what the best settings are. If you want to go the stable and consistent way then soften the springs up a little to get the car to behave better. But, if you are wanting to go the fast and risky route, which I did, then fiddle around with the camber, gears and springs.
I spent another half an hour on the car getting the setup just the way I wanted it and produced a fast lap of 1:05.117 with room for improvement. The final settings were as follows :
Spring Rate : 18.0/19.3
Ride Height : 89/135
Bound Dampers : 10/10
Rebound Dampers : 10/10
Camber : 0.9/0.8
Toe : 0/0 (didn't find any merit in changing these - maybe personal preference though).
Stabilisers : 6/7
Brakes : 12/12 (No need to change, perfect as they are).
Autosetup 15 then :
1) 2.811
2) 1.920
3) 1.267
4) 0.930
5) 0.735
F) 4.110
Max Downforce.
The result is a setup that can produce consistent fast time if the car is run at the speeds the setup was designed for. It may be slightly unstable but that was the compromise between fast and stability. I went for fast. That quick example is by no means the only way to tune a car. In fact I probably did things the wrong way around. Used the wrong technique but as I said previously, it has worked in the past and it continues to do so for me. Use that information at your own risk. We'll move on to a couple other cars now that are different form this one.
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Example 2 - [R]Lancia Stratos at Midfield Raceway
The Lancia Stratos will be or little project this time out and we will be focussing on stability and gearing rather than outright speed. Get a hold of a Lancia Stratos and add all the modifications that you can except for Traction, Stability and Limited Slip Diffs. We'll take the car to the arcade disk and give it a few runs around Midfield Raceway and see if we can get it good enough to handle the bumpiness and instability at the Horseshoe turn in sector 3.
- A few runs around the track in stock settings and you can see immediately that this car needs a good kick up the backside for it to be even remotely enjoyable. The gears are lacking, the stability is poor in turns and very slippery but it needs to have that oversteer tuned out of it.
- Back in the settings screen we turn the downforce up to its maximum values of .42/.70 and we need to sort the gears out temporarily. Set the final gear ratio to 4.110 and then change the autoset to say... 13? Okay, we'll just soften the rear spring rate to 4.0 to see if the oversteer and sliding is reduced any.
- Still too twitchy but better in some respects. The top end of gear 5 seems to be okay for the course but 3rd seems to be hitting the rev limiter too soon on the Horseshoe with fourth feeling as if it is bogging down too much. Do we go to fix the gears or the stability? Stability. Gears are important but we can't judge them properly if the car is spinnng on every second corner. Lower the ride height to the minimum to see if we can instill some sort of ease on the suspension. Try altering the dampers both bound and rebound to reduce the oversteer. Say maybe 9/7 and 9/7.
- Woah! As slippery as a bar of soap in the communal prison showers. We'll reduce the dampers down a bit to see if the stiffness is the problem... try 6/5 and 6/5 also a good idea is to remove the camber values to 0.0/0.0.
- Definitely not as tail happy but sector three in the Horseshoe is a nightmare. Might be worth considering increasing the rear camber value to see if we can instigate some form of grip and soften the rear all around. Bound to 6/4, rebound to 6/4, springs to 4.1/3.5.
- Interesting, very stable for the most part and actually a nicely driving car now. Sector three is not great as the Horseshoe turn always seems to jostle the rear about too much. The solution is to soften the rear suspension again. Again we'll lower the rear springs and see what that brings. Down to 4.1/3.0 and the car seems quite good and at a good starting point for fine-tuning.
- So far the cars handling is perfect for me. Others may like to tighten it up a little more but I always like the car on that edge of control so that if you get the line wrong you'll know it. The gearing is the next task. Third gear isn't hitting where we need it to go when we want it. It needs to have a little better topend. Not as bad as I first thought though. Fourth seems to be slowing though, needs more acceleration. 2nd gear is okay for the last left hander into the tunnel at the end of sector 3. Fifth is fine and first is never used so we'll just give it as much top end as we can without interfering with the other gears. A quick fiddle with the values to get the following...
1) 2.633 (Makes first faster at the top end)
2) 1.935 (default setting, no need to change)
3) 1.350 ( Just slightly faster so we can take the horseshoe perfectly)
4) 1.075 (bit more acceleration and compensation for 3rds better top end)
5) 0.817 (perfect as it is, enugh room if we get a good run out of sector 3)
F) 4.110 (value we previously set)
- After another test we can see that 3rd needs slightly more top end to get it around and out of the Horseshoe at optimum speed and power without sacrificing anything during a shift. We'll set that value to 1.330. 5th gear 'sounds' as if it is bogging down but it appears to keep speed and accelerate okay. No need to touch it at the moment.
- Another few laps and we can see that the setup is good enough to use. Possibly a good starting point to fine tune it to your own style or to make it faster. What you have now is gears that are in the right range for several of the turns and the handling is reasonable and a good sight better than stock settings.
Now, what do you do with this setup? Several things. You could stiffen up the car all around to see if the balance will stay the same and hopefully by stiffening it up you will get faster and more responsive. The gears cold be tweaked minutely to get the absolute optimum for either manual or automatic transmission and for each drivers own style of driving and shifting. A couple of km/h (or mph) could be gained on the massive front straight by attempting to reduce the rear downforce value to possibly .65 or thereabouts without causing the car to go out of control through the rest of the lap.
Spring Rate : 4.1/3.0
Ride Height : 93/93
Bound Dampers : 6/4
Rebound Dampers : 6/4
Camber : 0.0/0.4
Toe : 0.00/0.00
Stabilisers : 3/3
Downforce : .42/.70
Brake Balance : 12/12
Final 4.110 and autosetup 13, then :
1) 2.633
2) 1.935
3) 1.350
4) 1.095
5) 0.817
F) 4.110
The setup I leave here isn't perfect but it is the main points of the tuning procedure I put up earlier. The stage we are at is the finetuning of each variable to get the best performance. Fiddle, tweak and you'll learn what each thing does. It's not as if you'll break anything. If you experiment you might come across a better setting than this and make the car more stable in a better way without sacrificing any speed.
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#410
Itt van a GT2(kettő) néhány(!) tulajdonsága. Autókhoz és fizikához értő emberek írják le a tapasztalataikat. Még a hátrányokat is megemlítik, pl. "GT2 doesn't accurately model the effects of ride height", szóval elég fair... Csak tudnám, minek foglalkoznak ennyit egy arcade játékkal... (Feljebb folytatódik.. :))
To fully understand cornering, acceleration, braking and race physics you have to look at the cars weight distribution and the effects it has under various situations on the car and its handling characteristics and performance. At stand-still, a car will have its weight distributed equally over the wheels. When the car is put under acceleration all of the weight is shifted from the front to the rear thus giving the rear tyres more grip. In an FR car this is perfect for starts and of course powering out of corners. When turning a corner the wheels will lack grip and thus understeer unless the weight is shifted to them for a brief moment allowing them traction and grip to cope with the corner. Therefore to get the weight back to the front you have to slow the car down by braking thus throwing the weight to the front of the car and giving the steering wheels that bit more grip allowing the car to get around the corner fast without understeering.
You can get a car up a hill a lot quicker by selecting a lower gear and using all the rpms that the engine can dish out. You can use a higher gear to gain a little extra traction and control when accelerating. Corners can be taken at a higher speed due to selecting gears. You can sometimes brake a second or so later by engine braking. (Shifting down a few gears and then braking allowing the engine to help in slow the car down by reducing the power).
Using higher gears for traction at the corkscrew at Laguna Seca and learning to downshift quickly for the last turn will help immensely and supply you with the necessary practice needed for a huge range of possibilities. When approaching this turn line the car on the far right of the track and brake when necessary. (different cars require various braking points). Shift to a gear where in a normal situation the car would bog down. Manouvre the car so that you can almost take the entire turn in one direct line. Trial and error is the order of the day here as each car handles differently. By using a higher gear the driving wheels will be gaining traction through the mid point of the turn. As you pass this point shift down a gear so that you can get out of the turn quickly and use the cars acceleration. By using this shifting technique you are stabilising the car, maintaining control through the corner and of course gaining that necessary acceleration and speed for the exit.
When you kick the rear of the car out via dabbing the brakes, sharply turning and then jamming on the accelerator, the car will go into a power slide into the corner. To continue the slide through the corner you must use tact agility on the brakes and accelerator to keep the speed as constant and as high as is possible while using varying degrees of counter-steering to keep the car heading in the direction you want it to go in, i.e. the exit of the corners. A perfect power slide would be where the car loses as little speed as possible and obtains good grip upon the exit of the corner with no loss of speed. Ideally a slide should be performed on the edge of what is known as the Friction Circle. It's easy to initiate a slide, what's difficult is maintaining it through a corner.
Simulation/Control/Real-Life Tyres
Now here is where we delve into the mysteries of real life and where GT2 shows us how good its physics engine really is. Can you really take a corner at 70 mph? Try it with these babies strapped to the legs of your car then. I can guarantee you will fly off the course and hit the barrier. As with sports tyres the grip of the car is significantly reduced. Gears are quite useful when using these tyres. Some cars have different peak power and this can help in steering the car around the corners. When you are approaching a turn and you have slowed started turning in but the nose of the car is sweeping to the outside of the turn, you are almost certain to lose speed if you brake. The solution would be to shift up a gear and pump the gas every second or so. Chances are that the lower revs will allow the car to gain more grip on the surface and bring the nose around back onto the racing line and allow you to get the power down for the subsequent section.
Freaky Physics/Ground Effects
These effects are different styles of racing from the norm. They were stumbled across by many people over the last year and have been researched thoroughly by Grampa1951 (or gramps as he is now known). Gramps argues that what we term freaky physics is actually an effect in racing known as the ground effect.
GROUND EFFECT - This describes the nature of airflow near the ground. In airplanes, this refers to a cushion of air that builds up as a plane nears the ground. In racecars, this refers to artificially-generated low-pressure areas underneath the car which help it adhere to the ground. This is done by use of three-sided ground-effect 'tunnels' on each side of the bottom of the car, which start off small near the front and gradually get bigger towards the rear, creating a vacuum as the car moves forward using the ground as the fourth side of the tunnel. This is carefully managed by teams, using rules which specify the dimensions of the tunnels and how high the outside edge of each tunnel must be from the ground. The greater the gap between the tunnel side and the ground, the more vacuum escapes and the less down force is generated.
Grampa1951:
Now I have a question for the engineers. Is it possible that this effect is closer to r/l than everyone thinks? I am thinking of the air hockey table and the way the puck is held down by the air blowing from underneath it. Something that seems to defy logic.
In my playing with these cars/settings it seems to be the cars set up for ground effects that benefit the most and it is like a sucktion that is established and then can be broken if the car bounces too high.I noticed with the R30 at Midfield if I establish the sucktion before the first corner it can be maintained all the way to the overpass. If I loose that suction(by driving on the curb or anything that causes the car to bounce) even though I am at the same speed the ground effect does not hold.
It would seem to me if this were a "bug" the exact same settings would work on all cars of sufficient hp/downforce and of the same drivetrain. In my experience that is not the case. It looks to me like it is a matter of getting the suspension set up to establish some sort of harmonics in the tuning that allows the car to maintain this optimum ground effects condition.The springs setting being key in maintaining the suction.
GasMan:
I'm guessing and always had a suspicion that this effect was a result of ride height and that's what this kind of hints at (rather than the suspected suspension value although it helps in the overall effect). I can understand exactly what it indicates with the air flow and all that but I'm thinking that it is maybe an emphasised or enhanced type of Ground Effect in GT2.
Grampa1951:
Gas I think the lowered springs makes the suspension softer so the car can be sucked down tighter into that ground effect condition. In my playing w/the cars each one is different in how it responds to settings, again it seems pretty well modeled after the properties of each car.
Again it does not mean the things these cars can do is realistic but it does obey the laws of physics. It would seem perfectly reasonable to regulate settings to limit ground effects as is done in R/L.
GasMan:
Correct. The springs are an added force which complements the whole setup. The soft setting allows the car to stay level over the undulations of the track which means the airflow can stay relatively constant.
I think the reason the R30 is one of the better Ground Effect cars is due to it's minimum ride height. If my memory serves me correctly its minimum value was 55. That's pretty damn low for a car, which in turn substantiates and provides further evidence that a tunnel is created at the base of the car causing the Ground Effect.
I have noticed though that with stiff settings on the springs, dampers and stabilisers the car does tend to get faster but I think that is more a value of the tyres being 'planted' on the track which gives better grip. I think Deep Forest exploits the Ground Effect which is surprising considering it is a bumpier track. I'd have chosen SSR5 (or similar course) as a candidate with the smooth surface available there.
--------------------
Spring Rate : The springs are there to allow the car to return the wheel to the original position whilst allowing some sort of travel between the wheels and chassis of the car itself. Having soft springs allows the car to travel over bumps and uneven surfaces and make the journey that bit smoother. With stiff settings the car will be more noticeably unstable over uneven terrain and bumpy surfaces but the advantages are that the car will become more responsive, due to the unsprung mass (the body) being less able to move around relative to the sprung mass (the wheel, and suspension) and will upon acceleration gain speed more quickly due to the maximum weight transfer occurring more rapidly due to the reduced travel per unit of weight. Generally the stiffer the faster. (that is the best way to remember it). Settings wise, to induce oversteer you want the rear springs to be stiffer than the front. Likewise, understeer is induced by having stiffer front springs, because when a wheel is connected via a stiff spring, less weight can be transferred to it, so it has less grip, but changes in direction can be more rapidly transferred to the body of the vehicle.
Ride Height : This is the value(s) used to determine the distance the actual body of the car is off of the ground. Generally a low value means the car will be stable and responsive. The downside is that on bumpy tracks the car can start bouncing too much on the track. To remedy this, increase the value. A larger value at the rear of the car produces oversteer and increased acceleration at the initial point of accelerating. A point to note about the ride height settings is that with the minimum front value and the maximum rear value, the car will have a slight advantage over a normally level ride height value. The car will accelerate faster and gain speed better. The downside is that the car can become very unstable depending on the accumulation of the other settings. GT2 doesn't accurately model the effects of ride height so it is sometimes of benefit to lower the ride height all the way and you might actually get away with it.
Dampers/Damping : Damping occurs within a shock absorber so that the energy transferred to the unsprung mass (the tyre/wheel/brakes/suspension assembly) by a bump is not just passed on to the sprung mass (the rest of the car). Without damping you would have a spring, not a shock absorber. A variety of means are used for damping, but all use friction. Elastomeric shocks use the inherent properties of elastomer, air shocks restrict the flow of air out (compression/bound) and in (rebound) of the shock body, coilover shocks usually resrict the flow of oil out (compression/bound) and in (rebound) of the shock body. I'll use coilover shock for illustration. When you drive over a bump, the spring is compressed. This forces oil out of the shock body, through the damping mechanism, usually through some form of valve or shim (good for speed sensitive damping). Having passed over the bump the spring will rebound. Oil will then be drawn back through the damping mechanism, usually through a different circuit. In both directions, the forcing of the oil through the damping mechanism converts some of the kinetic energy into heat, reducing the kinetic energy transferred from the unsprung mass to the sprung mass. Increasing the compression damping reduces body roll, and subsequently weight transfer effects. It makes the car feel like it is more stiffly sprung. Rebound damping stops the spring kicking back, and makes the car feel less wallowy. However too much rebound damping can cause the car to pack down, reducing the available travel.
Bound Dampers : The bound and rebound settings on a car are there to help control the pitch and roll approaching and during cornering. The bound setting controls the rate at which the damper compresses when you touch the brakes so by giving the bound setting a higher value you slow down the rate of travel or if you decrease the bound value the faster it will compress. The smoothest way to approach and execute a corner is by keeping the whole car as level as possible throughout the whole turn. When travelling at high speed there is a greater force acting on the car when you touch the brake pedal, therefore by increasing the bound figure you will prevent the nose of the car from diving. If the nose dives too much you will end up with the rear of the car excessively high. This moves the weight off the rear tyres which means you now have reduced grip to travel through the turn which will be dangerous in a rear wheel drive car as the driven wheels now have little grip and the chance of spinning will be increased.
Rebound Dampers : To the same degree the rebound settings are just as important as the bound settings and need to be matched together to work properly. The rebound setting will control the rate at which the damper decompresses. The pitch of the car is equally affected by controlling the front diving as well as how fast the front comes back up when you take your foot off the brakes. The higher the rebound setting the stiffer the damper is when returning to it's normal position. The purpose of this is too make sure that the car doesn't swing back and fourth when on and off the brakes keeping the maximum amount of grip on the track and not in the air. If you set either the bound or rebound too high then it will affect the braking distance of your car. The most effective braking is done by transferring as much weight as you can to the front wheels whilst keeping the rear of the car as close to the ground as possible. Setting the bound/rebound too high will mean that you will restrict the amount of damper travel and thus affect the amount of weight you can transfer so you will need longer to stop or a lower cornering speed to eliminate understeer or oversteer depending on FWD or RWD.
Camber : With no camber on a flat surface the wheels will make contact 100%. With a slight bit of camber the angle of the wheel is changed and as a result the coverage of the wheel on the ground is reduced. i.e. less grip. Initially this seems bad but when turning the car the camber value allows the wheel to align with the ground and its camber will mean the wheel and ground make full contact. Thus more grip is produced and a faster time through the corner. Increased camber means better grip through corners. A higher front value induces oversteer. One thing to take into account with camber is the fact that it can increase grip. If you have a car that likes to slip its rear out every so often (oo-er missus), it is sometimes useful to increase the rear camber to counter that effect and stabilise the car again. I have in the past came across settings which look almost radical yet the car handles superbly. A Mazda RX-7 handles a little better under power with engine mods attached if it's camber values are around 0.8/1.2, trust me, it works.
Toe : This is similar to camber but on a different level. Toe means the wheels can be already angled towards the turn thus causing resistance during straight sections but allowing the car to turn in and out of a corner initially at greater speed and more responsively. The sketchy diagram below shows what position the wheels are in when viewed from above in various values of toe.
//==\\ - Toe-out - negative number (Positive toe)
| |==| | - Zero Toe
\\==// - Toe-out - positive number (Negative toe)
Positive toe will allow the car to have a quicker reaction when entering a corner at the initial point. Negative toe will slow the response down a little. There has been much discussion on the values of toe and the exact effects that a value inducts on the car. It has been decided that toe out (negative number) in GT2 will give the car more bite out of the corner and thus more grip. The diagram above is a reflection of the theory of the way GT2 treats toe. Real life values of toe are slightly different and are in fact almost reverse of what I have stated here. To be sure, test it and see what your own conclusions are. We're still not 100% sure what is going on here except to say that negative numbers help steer the car better. Read up on some of the links related to toe and determine the correct values for yourself.
Stabilisers : These settings are handy for altering the balance of the car without making too much of a fuss around the more technical aspects of the car and its suspension. Generally the higher the front stabiliser the more oversteer that is induced. (or more properly, the less understeer is found).
Brakes : Settings to the brakes only come into effect obviously when the car is under braking. By setting the front value higher than the rear the car will have a tendency to turn in when you brake. This can be helpful if you find the car wanting to head straight ahead when you need to turn the car. It is sometimes useful to use a softer setting on higher powered cars to stop the brakes locking. With a lower value the brakes will not be applied as powerfuly and thus the chance of locking the wheels is reduced and of course there will be less sliding through the corners... which is 'a very bad thing'.
Downforce : Low downforce means more speed but less grip. High downforce is 'grippier' but slower. In GT2 it doesn't make too much of a difference. Normally the best values to use are right at the maximum that these values can go to. No real advantage can be gained from low downforce under regular GT2 racing conditions. If however you are racing under a course such as the Test Course it may be wise to remove some of that downforce. With less drag the car does in fact have a higher top speed. This is simply because of the length of the straights on the test course. Again, under a regular GT2 race and its conditions downforce should be set near maximum.
Traction Controller : Simply put this device controls the traction. (sorry I couldn't resist). There have been discussions in the past questioning if the setting here actually helps at all. The mere existence of the controller is normally enough to reduce any wheel-spin and gain more grip. No real value has been found from fiddling with this setting. Traction control is only really needed in the high output cars, especially the Speed 12. It will help most cars off the start line by reducing the amount of wheel-spin. Sensors located on the hubs will send a signal back 100 times a second monitoring the speed of each wheel. If it detects a sudden increase in speed then it will decrease the amount of power to that wheel and transfer it to those that have grip. This does help the Speed 12 when exiting corners by limiting the wheel-spin when you hit the power-band and get a sudden burst of acceleration.
Stability Controller : Another one of those devices with a question mark over it. The existence of it helps but not the values used. Generally the higher the setting the less roll the car has. Really this is very closely linked to the bound and re bound settings. The stability controller measures excessive body roll during cornering and electronically stiffens each individual damper to keep the car as level as possible through the bend. This reduces any sudden weight shift in the car which would upset the balance and grip and potentially cause you to spin.
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#409
egyelőre te vagy az, aki valós tényeket próbál cáfolni -
#408
Mert megmosolyogtató az erőlködésed. :) -
#407
miért szívnám mellre, ha én ennél csak élethűbb és kidolgozottabb játékokkal játszom, azt magyarázd meg...... -
#406
"Megint mellre szívod, hogy a GT3-ban nagyon király, élethű vezetési szimuláció van megvalósítva. Nem sok mindent szimulál, de amit igen, azt nagyon jól."
Ja, tehát az előre gurulás egész klafa, a fékezéskor való lassulás is benne van. Kész szimulátor.... Nagy hagyjuk abba kurva sürgősen, Mohus gyere vissza, veled lehet beszélgetni! -
#405
Most szimuláció kell, vagy nem? Akkor meg beállítod szépen. Megint mellre szívod, hogy a GT3-ban nagyon király, élethű vezetési szimuláció van megvalósítva. Nem sok mindent szimulál, de amit igen, azt nagyon jól.
"a konzolos játékosok szórakozni akarnak, nem pedig átélni valami komolyat"
A 'szórakozás' és az 'átélni valami komolyat' itt most tök ugyanazt jelenti, csak úgy néz ki, nálad a konzolos játékos valami külön fajnak számít (ezt csak én vettem észre?). -
#404
de bazz nem lehetsz ilyen suta!!!
EGY SZIMULÁTOR NEM EGY KURVA KAPCSOLÓ KÉRDÉSE!!!
"alapban úgy van beállítva minden, hogy bárki elboldoguljon vele"
EZ RÖHEJ!! Szánalmas, nevetséges, felháborító nonszensz baromság!! Még én állítgassak minden lószart, hogy valami életszerűséget csikarjak ki a REAL DRIVING SIMULATORból??? A külső nézet szerinted szimulátor jellegzetesség?? Tudod te egyáltalán mit jelent a szimulál mint ige?? Te az autódat 4 méter magasról 6 méterrel mögüle vezeted?? Vagy hogy gondoltad ezt az eszement gyerekes baromságot??
Aki még életében nem vezetett autót, és GT3-ról azt hiszi, van valami köze a valósághoz, azt első alkalommal el fogják tanácsolni az autós iskolából, ha alkalmazni szeretné a játékban tanultakat. Ellenben, ha nem gagyi konzolos szarokon tanul, hanem olyan játékokon, amelyekhez valós verseny csapatok adják a nevüket és a BEÁLLÍTÁSAIKAT, akkor nem sok meglepetés fogja érni az utcán... Adjátok már fel ezt az értelmetlen küzdelmet!! Konzolon NINCS és NEM LESZ szimulátor, mégpedig azért, mert a konzolos játékosok szórakozni akarnak, nem pedig átélni valami komolyat, és ezért nincs benne pénz, a konzolos fejlesztőket meg más nem érdekli. PONT. Aki szimmel akar játszani, az vegyen PC-t. Látványban nem kapja ugyanazt, de nem is ez a lényeg.